It is basically all the negatives of having one electronic payment method (If you lose it, you have no money unless you have cash on hand or can somehow get money out of the bank... if your bank even has a physical branch nearby) with all the negatives of having multiple credit cards (It is a lot more attractive to thieves / skimmers)
With a whole bunch of new negatives like, if you lose your Coin, that means someone has access to all your cards and even if you don't lose it, you are essentially handing people your entire wallet when you use it. Skimmers probably love this thing. Oh, and not to mention: You can't use it online. So all those pesky credit cards; yeah, make sure to keep those around because you still need them.
It just didn't make any sense to me. Pay $100 for no real upsides and a lot of really terrifying downsides.
It's moot because the product is now dead, but if I understood Coin correctly, all of your criticisms are invalid.
> If you lose it, you have no money unless you have cash on hand or can somehow get money out of the bank
You keep the actual cards at home. So if you lose your Coin, you just go back to your separate cards.
> It is a lot more attractive to thieves / skimmers
The Coin was secured through your phone's passcode/biometrics/pattern, so yeah if they broke that you'd be boned. The same as with GWallet/iPay. A sophisticated mugger could do it I guess.
> if you lose your Coin, that means someone has access to all your cards
Not without the phone.
> you are essentially handing people your entire wallet
No, before you hand it to a waiter or whatever you lock it into the card you want to use.
>> It is a lot more attractive to thieves / skimmers
>>The Coin was secured through your phone's passcode/biometrics/pattern, so yeah if they broke that you'd be boned. The same as with GWallet/iPay. A sophisticated mugger could do it I guess.
Mugger A: "Give me the wallet!"
(Hands over wallet)
Mugger A: "Now unlock your phone and give it to me!"
(Unlocks phone and hands it over)
Mugger B: "Better chop off his thumb too ... might need it to unlock some apps!"
the finger has to be warm. cutting off a finger won't actually let someone have unlimited access to your device. the mugger may not understand this though...
That's actually nonsense. You most certainly can cut off someone's finger and use it to unlock their phone. I'm not aware of any capillary scanners on phones...
TL;DR: Cheap phones use optical sensors (can be fooled by an inkjet). Older high end phones and some new ones use capacitive scanners which require the actual finger plus an equivalent capacitance which can be faked by holding the finger with your bare hands (making sure to get close to the actual finger tip). Might take a few tries but it'll work. The latest tech uses ultrasonic sensors which measure the ridges of the fingerprint incredibly accurately. Enough so that blood loss may result in failure but I doubt that any phone's sensor is going to require that level of accuracy (do you press your finger with that precise amount of pressure every time?).
While I usually try to stay serious while reading HN, That statement really made me lol.
I'm rooting more for Samsung's magnetic secure transmission (MST) to be more mainstream then these card replacements.
I'm way out of my league commenting on what criminals would or wouldn't do, but I don't think _casual_ muggers would resort to cutting fingers off.
More serious, organise, full time muggers might, but I would suspect those are more rare (and you're probably in a whole lot of danger with them anyway. missing digits probably isn't your biggest concern)
I'm way out of my league commenting on what criminals would or wouldn't do, but I don't think _casual_ muggers would invest in custom 3d printing solutions.
Yeah, this--and all the other copycat articles at that time--are bullshit. It absolutely will work with a severed finger. If the first try doesn't work just wet the severed finger with water or take a pencil and color the finger tip with graphite.
Example of someone unlocking an iPhone with the latest and greatest sensor tech (on phones anyway): https://youtu.be/2u4ZLGsw1zo
They had less than a severed finger: A simple silicone copy. Something you can actually manufacturer with a high resolution picture of a fingerprint (as demonstrated by the CCC).
The promise of Coin is that you don't have to carry anything else. It is a fantastic idea.
However, unless it worked at least 95% of the time, it's useless, because you have to carry at least one backup card.
My experience with the Coin 2.0 is that it worked about 20% of the time and was very, very frustrating in every respect. It went in a drawer after a week.
I have a debit card, I don't need to carry anything else.
It does contactless payments, chip + pin payments, ATM widthdrawls, verifies who I am at the bank and has my account details on it.
What else could I want, a credit card for things which belong more on credit? OK so now I have 2 cards, but really beyond that what else is there?
No amount of mobile hardware / phone apps are going to replace 2 cards both of which fit easily in a wallet and don't require charging, don't wear out for 5+ years (by which time the bank has replaced it free of charge), and I don't need to take out of my pocket for any other reason (so I'm not likely to lose it or leave it elsewhere).
> I have a debit card, I don't need to carry anything else.
If your card hasn't been stolen (via a hacked merchant) and your account wiped out yet, consider yourself lucky. You might want to carry a credit card as your primary instead. When (and I do mean when) it is stolen, at least it's only credit instead of your bank account balance that is impacted (and which can takes weeks or more to get back).
I cancelled my Coin preorder and got my money back once the EMV rollout became a done deal, fortunately.
I was in Europe 2 weeks ago, using a local SIM so I was not getting calls on my "home" phone number registered with my banks.
On a Friday night at the bar in Copenhagen, I happened to see an email from my one bank saying to call them immediately about possibly-fraudulant charges. So I called international to confirm that i was overseas and the charges were legit, and which countries I'd be traveling to over the next week. (Previously my bank said it was NOT necessary to notify them when traveling, so I hadn't up until then).
The very next day I flew to Frankfurt and had both of my chip cards rejected at a fast food restaurant.
That night I had to make a Google Talk call to both credit card companies; the first one to bitch them out that I had JUST told them about my travel.. but it turns out they had no record of the attempted charge, something must have gone wrong with the terminal. The SECOND credit card company notified me of fraudulent charges that happened while I was on my flight from the US. They cancelled my card immediately and shipped me a new one, which did me no good since I was overseas.
However, conveniently, the "replacement" card popped up in Apple Wallet before I even got off the phone with them, so at least in theory I could use NFC payments with the new replacement card.
I was extremely nervous because not 12 hours later I needed a credit card for a 6000 euro preauth for a track car rental. Obviously my 2 debit cards would not do, I couldn't use the compromised card (unless they had NFC and I could use ApplePay for it), so I NEEDED my remaining card to work. Fortunately it did.
I happened to have a 3rd credit card which used to be EMV but was replaced with a non-chip card a year ago, and which I haven't used since; that was my only backup plan (assuming they could take a mag stripe card, which typically is not an issue in Europe). (short of spending another 20 minutes on the phone with credit card companies the next day trying to figure out why my charges were still failing).
I absolutely never charge anything to a debit card, and I make sure I have at least 2 or 3 credit cards whenever I travel, in addition to the debit card(s) for getting cash.
As a Brit, I often experience opposing horrors. Using a UK card in the US without notifying your bank is just asking for a gubbing. I don't blame them either... the only store I've been in over the pond which used EMV, earlier this year in fact, was Riteaid. Most stores don't even do the traditional cursory signature check. There aren't even token safeguards in place to stop magstripe cloning techniques straight out of the 80s or 90s.
It's so risky from a fraud perspective that interesting travel cards like Revolut now let you toggle magstripe transactions in their app.
Comparing signatures to the back of the card is useless, most people do not sign their marks THAT consistently and it's entirely possible for someone committing fraud to make something "good enough" that would pass casual inspection from a depressed retail employee (my signature varies depending on how tired I am, how quickly I am trying to just get the hell out of the store, how much caffeine I have - or haven't - had that day, etc). Pretty much the only reason they are even ON your card is a place for you to accept the terms of your cardholder agreement (which is virtually useless since every card I've had since I started using credit/debit cards has me accept them during the card activation process or just applying for the card).
EMV PIN's are a crappy solution too, a four digit PIN is all banks in Europe need to consider a transaction "genuine" even though numerous attacks against EMV are already in the wild - makes for great fun trying to reverse fraudulent charges in many stories I've read online.
There is zero hassle reversing fraudulent charges, in many cases the bank itself will tell the person they think something is fraudulent, and a quick "Yeah that was me" or "Oh dear that wasn't me" is all it takes.
4 digits is enough security given it requires having the card itself, and locks out after a few incorrect attempts.
And security is about traceability not preventability.
> There is zero hassle reversing fraudulent charges,
For fraud where the pin is used? In the UK if the criminal uses your pin you're going to struggle to get the bank to repay you.
"banks / credit card companies always repay the victims of fraud" is a bit of a meme, and it's dangerous because it's often not the case. The repay in certain clearly limited cases, but not in others.
I've never had a UK bank refuse to reimburse fraudulent transactions for me. Usually you just have to report it promptly and sign a statement to say it wasn't you. The bottom line is for relatively small transactions (say a few grand or less), it's not worth their time to investigate.
I've been all over the world over the past 15 or so years with credit/debit cards from various Norwegian and Swedish banks. Not once I have ever notified my bank about anything (in fact it was only a few of years ago that I even knew that that was a thing), and not once has there been any problems. I wonder why there are such different standards?
As jodah points out, it was attractive for me because at minimum I have a credit card, an ATM card, and a parking benefits card. I also have additional cards that have better benefits for things like gas/groceries so it's nice having the flexibility to choose to use one for a particular transaction.
That said, my experience with Coin was abysmal. It worked maybe half the time, when it did work it took the cashier and embarrassing number of swipes while I stood there wondering if it would work at all.
When I wrote in to support they said that there was a certain set of POS machines that the card wasn't recognized on. At that point Coin becomes completely and utterly worthless because I now have to carry the other cards in case it fails. If someone made a card that worked in 100% of the places that I can currently use an ATM or credit card I would get one in a heartbeat. The fact that Coin claimed to and wasn't even laughably close to delivering on this makes me hate them
I've had my Maestro debit card skimmed twice, causing about 3k to be withdrawn from my account. In both cases my bank had:
* Filed a police report
* Disabled the card
* Mailed me a new card
* Started recovering the money
Before I even noticed the money being gone. The first time I actually had my money and new card back before I noticed my old card got disabled. The second time I noticed because I couldn't buy lunch using my card, but in both cases I had my money and a new card within like a week?
Besides, no one here really has/uses credit cards and stores mostly don't accept them.
No, it's the same here. I have a chase debit card that's been compromised 3 or 4 times and every time I've gotten the money back in 2 or 3 days. Even when it was used to take $1000 USD out in Turkey after getting skimmed in Berlin.
Have you actually ever had a card stolen or skimmed?
It's not as bad an experience as you're making it out to be. My credit union handled everything the last time I was skimmed, including giving me the money back and overnighting a new card.
I've had it happen. Put me very close to zeroed out, bank sent me a new card and processed the refund eventually but it took several days. Maybe laws are different here (UK).
I carry a couple different credit cards because they have different rewards programs, and I hate having a bunch of shit in my wallet, so I backed Coin.
As an expat business owner, I carry six cards with me at all times: debit and credit for Spain personal, US personal, and US business. When you add in both local and home country IDs, office access card, and cash, having something that reduces the number of cards I have to put in my wallet sounds very attractive.
If my credit card failed one out of every 20 transactions (95%), I still wouldn't use it. At a restaurant, you'd be stuck having consumed the food but with no way to pay for it.
I work at a bank, we have the minimum of 5 9's rule for every app and transactional entity. Basically, it needs to be up 99.999% of the time.
Currently, we have a 99.9998% uptime for the main transactional cluster/mainframe/computer/etc. and that still means 20 minutes of down time in the last 20 years.
That doesn't sound like a lot, but that's like ~$1 million of transactions lost for every minute it is down.
Got a Coin 2.0 because of the hype and peer pressure. Took 2 days to set up because I typed address information incorrectly and had to verify my identity to unlock my coin account (this was on me largely). Already souring on the Coin experience the first place I used it, it failed. Haven't put it back in my wallet since then.
Imo it has to be way higher than 95%. The thought of having it fail on me even 1% of the time at the time of purchase (say, I'm buying $300 worth of things at Costco) makes me unable to ditch backup cards, which makes its value proposition poor.
Well, that's just great. I was an original backer and got a Coin 1.0. They kept saying they'd ship me a Coin 2.0 due to the problems with the 1.0, but I never got it. Now it appears all mention of that has been scrubbed from their website.
It is kind of humorous that their website now as a big "Sold Out" banner right at the top next to this announcement.
I'm with you. Not only was I an original backer, but I was also an early backer. I got my Coin 1.0 months after they promised, and it almost never worked anywhere. Coin 2.0 comes out with EVT but no NFC payment, promises to work at more locations, still hardly works. I'm pretty pissed with Coin, and will definitely not buy into any future FitBit products as a result.
If it makes you feel any better, I got a coin 2.0, and it worked so infrequently I stopped using it after like a couple weeks. Plus the annoyed looks from people at shops being like WTF is this thing (which were validated when it didn't work with their system) got old fast.
I just use mine for loyalty cards and magstripe gift cards (so they don't collect dust because I don't want a fat wallet). Might be worth a try if you haven't tried it for anything.
I was an early backer of Coin, but by the time it actually shipped to me, years late, Apple Pay had been out for months. My Coin box went unopened into the recycling bin. And this was before I read reviews saying it only worked 1 in 5 times.
Coin 2.0 does not support EMV. They used slippery marketingspeak to dance around the subject (saying NFC enables "EMV payment standards") but the bottom line is your chip card would only work with Coin by reverting to traditional static magnetic stripe data.
Nothing about how much the deal was worth. Regarding acquihire, "the acquisition accelerates Fitbit’s ability to develop an active NFC payment solution that could be embedded into future Fitbit devices, broadening its smart capabilities. The acquisition excludes smart payment products, such as Coin 2.0."
I remember in September 2014 when Apple announced Apple Pay watching the keynote live on TV. I was visiting San Francisco at the time, staying in SoMa, and out the window adjacent I had a clear view of the Coin office. To be a fly on the wall during that time…
I don't see much a fit for payment features in fitbit products. They should probability focus on iterating the hardware and experience regarding the "sport watch" idea. Their strength is also the simplicity of the product.
EDIT: interesting examples provided in the replies, thanks. To buy things while running without having anything with you is a good thing, also if this technology allows to, like, register in a gym or alike and enter without any other token.
I'm not saying I want this, but it would be possible:
Imagine your access card for the gym doesn't provide free access to everything, but every time you enter the sauna it bills you one dollar, or physically walking into a class bills you the individual class tuition. Unlocking the racquetball court door costs three dollars. Then after your workout you walk up to the vending machine to get your bottled tapwater or fancy water or whatever and pay with your gym access card. Inevitably there are not enough treadmills for peak times, so something is set up today like signup sheets and time use limits, but crazy as it sounds you could pay per use or bid to reserve, high bid on treadmill #7 from 6:00 to 6:30 tonight is two dollars, wave your magic token thingy here to give you the new high bid at three dollars. Gamify things such that every 100 miles on the treadmill means a free run next time. Insert anecdote of people hooking up their fitbit to a cordless drill to get 100 miles per day so as to get free treadmill time.
I've had very much the opposite experience with Fitbit, twice.
1. I had an old FitBit Ultra that stopped syncing to the base station. They sent me a replacement base station but that didn't work, but I forgot to follow it up. Fast forward a year and I find my (now out of warranty) Fitbit in the back of my Man Drawer. I dropped them an email on the off chance that they'd take a look at it for me and instead they sent me a free Fitbit One.
2. My wife dropped her Fitbit One on the school run and didn't notice until later in the day. On the way back to pick up our daughter she found her Fitbit by the side of the road with half of the electronics hanging out due to having been under more than a few car tyres. I suggested contacting Fitbit to see if it could be repaired or if they offered refurbished units, and again they sent her a brand new Fitbit One completely free of charge.
I'm sure the level of customer support varies geographically, but since the above I've had nothing but good things to say about Fitbit UK's customer support.
I definitely had a different experience than you did. Preordered a coin, 2 years later still had not arrived and yet the world had moved on from magnetic stripes.
Got the original Coin, it was defective and I was sent another one. I used it on a transaction and it charged a card different than the one showing on the display. By then most of my frequent buys were at stores that take chip cards so I stopped carrying it. Still waiting for my Coin 2.0 that should have shipped in Q1.
Here in the pacific northwest, a rather high-tech area, perhaps one out of ten shops/merchants I use actually supports some manner of NFC payments, while everyone supports magnetic stripes. Any payment mechanism that only works with NFC is DOA for me.
Ah. In that case: perhaps two out of ten of the shops/merchants I use support (but don't require) chip-and-PIN. But yes, any new payment mechanism based on magnetic stripes should absolutely support chip-and-PIN.
Coin did not work for me at like 40-60% of stores I tried it at. When I tried to get a refund they claimed it was unreturnable and could only refund 50% of the money I paid for it.
I wouldn't exactly say they had a good product or stood by it, this seems like an acquihire to me. They did try hard to do something that many said would be impossible, which is HARD, I'll give them that!
I've had problems with 2 of the 4 Fitbit devices me and my wife have owned. Her Flex was intermittently powering off. I contacted support and they sent a new one within days. My current Charge HR (bought in October) band started bubbling and pulling apart. I contacted support last week and a replacement device should arrive tomorrow.
I think they required receipt information for the Flex (that was a few years ago). For the Charge HR, they just asked me where I bought it and what country I live in, then offered a replacement.
Fitbit devices haven't shown good durability, in my experience, but the company has proven very willing to replace defective devices.
Coin stood by nothing, not even their early backers. I'm genuinely upset they got our money and sold out, making more money. I wish they went up in flames and died out for the horrific user experience I and other backers experienced.
Coin had a raised a decent amount of Venture Capital, so it's likely there were other stakeholders and voices at the table in the decision. It's not uncommon for a VC to demand a board seat when they lead a funding round, and it's also not uncommon for a VC with said board seat to push for a modest exit to cover their downside when things aren't working out.
Echoed. Bought a Fitbit Charge a few years ago, band started separating, I tweeted them and got a response within 20 minutes, and a new Fitbit Charge about 8 days later. I've since upgraded to the Charge HR.
I lost my cheapo fitbit at the car dealership (it clipped onto the seatbelt of a certain car I test drove), and Fitbit sent it back after it was found.
This is the product (Coin 2.0) that has not even been out a year, cost as much as $100, and will become a brick in under 2 years with its built-in obsolescence?
Return Merchandise Authorization. It's approval to return the product and it is a number you put on the shipping label when you return it so the company knows to refund you on receipt assuming it passes QC.
It is basically all the negatives of having one electronic payment method (If you lose it, you have no money unless you have cash on hand or can somehow get money out of the bank... if your bank even has a physical branch nearby) with all the negatives of having multiple credit cards (It is a lot more attractive to thieves / skimmers)
With a whole bunch of new negatives like, if you lose your Coin, that means someone has access to all your cards and even if you don't lose it, you are essentially handing people your entire wallet when you use it. Skimmers probably love this thing. Oh, and not to mention: You can't use it online. So all those pesky credit cards; yeah, make sure to keep those around because you still need them.
It just didn't make any sense to me. Pay $100 for no real upsides and a lot of really terrifying downsides.