> but from my current perspective they seem corrupted and perverse.
Thank you for sharing. I was wondering would it make a difference at all if someone else, (a friend, therapist, partner) would say how the current perspective is corrupted or warped. Would that make a difference? Would it help in that situation? If not, what does help, if anything to get out of that mode?
I've thought about this a lot, but I haven't found any sure-fire way to pierce through the depressed mentality.
In the depressed mentality, you are 100% sure of your convictions. That's why you know that life isn't worth living. Anyone telling you things counter to your ideas is either lying or deluded or just plain naive. SSRIs are nothing more than "happy pills" that cloud your judgment and turn you into a stranger to yourself; basically lies in pill form.
Depression in full flower is an air-tight system that allows nothing contrary in, roughly equivalent to being in a cult, so cracking through the armor is difficult, indeed! The only way I can think of that could work (other than the person figuring it out for themselves) is to (a) be known and respected by them, (b) have experience with severe depression yourself so that they know you've been there, and (c) keep gently pushing them forward after the initial bluntness. Just getting a depressed person to see a shrink would be a huge accomplishment. Getting them to stay on SSRIs is another huge accomplishment (I haven't helped anyone with the first, but I have kept a friend going with the second).
For me personally, I keep mental snapshots of my baseline emotional state so that I have something to compare against. It's a kind of early warning system for when I'm falling so I can catch myself. Just realizing that my current sadness is of a purely chemical cause helps me get out of it sooner (within hours rather than days or even weeks). There are, of course, times of honest, real sadness, like anyone else gets, but they have a different feel. I can't explain the difference, but I can recognize it.
> For me personally, I keep mental snapshots of my baseline emotional state so that I have something to compare against. It's a kind of early warning system for when I'm falling so I can catch myself.
I'm currently developing some software to assist in that, by tracking your mood, amount of sleep, and other factors. The idea is that when things start moving away from your "normal" state it can trigger some alerts - something like Pingdom for your loved ones.
It's not ready for public use yet, but if anyone would be interested in trying out an early version when it is ready feel free to drop me a message on the email address in my profile, and I'll let you know.
I never found comfort in "all this pain is an illusion" but Pearl Jam's "Present Tense" lyrics have something simplistic, true and healing about them that honestly make me wonder how they could have written it. Especially the part leading to "you're the only one who can't forgive yourself".
And Tool "Reflection", especially "And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt, Don't want to be down here feeding my narcissism, I must crucify the ego before it's far too late" which is of course a bit long to have it tattoo'ed but the idea, how narcissistic it actually is what you are doing... and how you must crucify this ego, this part of you, to find your true self and find peace.
Would that make a difference? Probably not, the depressed person isn't dumb they know they are depressed. Much like if you had hallucinations that the sky was red it wouldn't matter how scientifically certain you are the sky is blue you see red. Perhaps that is a good way to describe it to someone who hasn't felt it, having emotional hallucinations in which every thing brings about fear and loathing even things that should result in joy.
I've been in the position of being that someone else a few times, most recently last night, so please excuse any incoherence due to sleep deprivation.
My wife suffers from bipolar disorder, which is mostly characterised in her by periods of intense depression, which in her case can at times lead to making conclusions that externally make no sense at all. Things like "I'm going to kill myself because it will make life better for you. You can stop looking after me and go and find someone normal and have a happy life." She'll tell me these things completely seriously, as if its the only possible conclusion that could be come to given the available facts.
No amount of talking that over, and explaining how precisely the opposite would happen, will change her mind. The best I can do is to get her into hospital until the depression passes.
I imagine for straight depression, especially where it is more situational than chemical, and depending upon the person, it may be possible to look at things rationally and persuade them that there are other options. I would advise to be incredibly careful doing that though, since they may sit and agree with you just to reassure you and get you out of the way.
Thank you for sharing. I can't imagine having to go through that.
> I would advise to be incredibly careful doing that though, since they may sit and agree with you just to reassure you and get you out of the way.
That is an interesting perspective. I have seen that happen. They wouldn't want to upset me or make me feel like a burden or a failure for not successfully helping them, so I would gets agreements and assurances but I could tell there were not genuine.
Sometimes persuading them to do something else, sometime different, just being in a different place helps temporarily of course in that state people don't want to do anything or go anywhere, so that doesn't always work.
I think it would be more helpful to have the - relatively - insignificant problems remedied one-by-one, rather than just talking.
Being deeply depressed is like having a burden/cloud over your head, you can't think straight because all those issues are just sitting there in the background, blocking normal thoughts.
Once you come out of it, you don't really recognize the depressed individual that was running on auto pilot. That's my take on it anyway.
Let's assume you are a very avid programmer and love nothing more than coding and to you it is the most natural thing in the world, then let's assume someone comes along and tells you your view is just warped, corrupted and you have no idea what you are talking about. However clumsy that analogy is, how would you feel in that situation? Would your first, intuitive gut reaction be "You know, they might be right...I should have become a doctor or a lawyer and that's what I am going to do right now!"? Chances are you would feel affronted, offended and ultimately like the person does not understand you and has no idea what they are talking about. Completely regardless of whether they might be on to something and a different career choice might be "better", mind you. We only observe what your reaction would be to someone basically trampling on your view of the world.
From my point of view and self-observations, when you are severely depressed or suicidal, that is your view of the world and suffering from it, you have a hundred million reasons and scenarios played out in your head just why you are absolutely right to feel the way you do, why you deserve to be miserable and why you have no business being here anymore or why your only escape is to leave. The very fact that it has become so ingrained in you and you cannot just "flip a switch" and think and feel differently, that is the very thing that makes it depression and suicidal thoughts, that you CANNOT just magically escape because you are a world champion in convincing yourself why you are right to feel the way you do. Now along comes someone and tells you "You are just imagining that, people react very positive towards you, you are such a nice person! Your view is just warped, you are making it harder on yourself...". Now, how would that make you feel?
For me, it feels like my issues were not appreciated and the other person just does not understand the extent of my torment, they cannot relate, they don't understand anyway... see, nobody understands. At the same time, I know how egotistical and self-centered and warped that view is; I have a strange analytical way of looking at myself, it surprises even counselors. Yet, I could not change a single thing. Either I am watching, armchair analyzing myself like a lab rat or I am "in character" and suffering. Anyone telling me my view is "warped" usually ends up causing a huge quarrel because no matter how much I try to make them understand, of course they counter every point I throw at them to "fix me" and that soon leads to anger and feeling even worse because CLEARLY nobody understands me! Of course this is just my point of view, mind you.
What CAN you do or say? I think stop trying to convince them they are wrong; stop trying to "flip a switch", no matter how much you try with the very best intentions and your deepest love, you won't find a switch or the right combination of logic reasoning to just "snap the person out of it". I know this must be terrible to hear if you watch someone you love suffer like that, I am sorry. I can honestly not think of a better thing to do... don't push them in any direction or look for switches to flip, also don't belittle it like "you'll get better!" or "nah it can't be that bad!". I think just give them emotional support, hug, hold, let them cry, share honest(!) compassion... above anything, don't try to fix but be there and show them support in that way. Don't give them up, keep inviting them out or offering to come over even after they have said "no" or made up some excuse the last 5 times. Also, don't take some offensive words they say or tantrums they throw too serious. Generally try to not judge a depressed person too quickly, even if they are acting like major assholes... it's just more a passive-aggressive desperate cry for help, feel mercy for them, like for a wounded animal snarling.
Last and most importantly, speaking out of my own experience and I know this will not sound like a popular suggestion but I think it is vital: be selfish enough to not give too much of yourself! You can only get very emotionally invested and involved in a depressed person for so long before it can strongly affect you and seriously spin you out of control when their emotional abyss starts to sound all too logical and convincing and all of a sudden you find yourself staring down the same hole. Be wary of that, you have every right to, don't feel bad about protecting yourself - much like fire fighters won't blindly risk their own life. Never think that it is your role to "fix them"! Your role, if anything, is to just support however much you see fit and are able to safely give - it is a professional's role to provide them with ways of healing and "fixing" and they have their own ways of coping with it. I know for myself, when I see it in a person, I intentionally wall-off and protect myself because I know, I am in no safe position to take on more emotional baggage. It took me a LONG time to realize this and do this to protect myself. I know this sounds incredibly selfish but I know why I am doing this and I think everyone involved with a suicidal person should think about this too. Get them professional help.
Small things that seem to do wonders for me: taking a walk, go have a few beers with good friends and cleaning up my place. You can help with that and I think it does wonders, considering how little it is that you are actually doing. I think it is the thought of making something better with your own hands that can create quite a positive pull. And there is no shortage of little exercises your counselor can suggest or asks you to do. Seemingly silly things like writing down a few good qualities about yourself, things you are good at.
It is interesting that it is possible to be so introspective and at the same time for it not to help. In a certain way that is one of the common approaches in therapy. Let patients confront their irrational persistent thoughts. Would you say that this ability confers an immunity to therapy?
> stop trying to "flip a switch", no matter how much you try with the very best intentions and your deepest love
Yeah that is really the first instinct. I've been on both sides of it, and still (wrongly) think that it would work, even though it didn't seem to work before.
I'll have to try the show of support. That makes sense, thank you for suggestion. Looking back, getting out and changing the physical surroundings sometimes make a difference in the mental state.
> I think it is the thought of making something better with your own hands that can create quite a positive pull.
That makes a lot of sense. Some people are better at providing that. It is the personality and demeanor too perhaps -- just being with them, creates a better state.
>Would you say that this ability confers an immunity to therapy?
I assume you are talking about me basically over-analyzing myself and it not helping me? The curious thing really is, I think ultimately I am just doing what most depressed people are doing, digging myself in further. When before trying therapy, I felt depressed and always sort-of out of place and "wrong", now I have no shortage of "proof" how broken I am, even by design/bringing up. When before, my issues were more in the here and now, it sort of spiraled into "everything has been wrong from the very start because those are the conditions I grew up under and missed out on this,this,this etc....". A more "sophisticated" kind of very toxic thinking and turning in circles,in cycles, if you will. If this ultimately works for or against therapy or bettering oneself, I cannot say. So far I think it has had some things easier, understanding connections or correlations; and some things harder, like this toxic thinking. But instead of that I might be circling over something else if I wasn't over-analyzing.
I think the confronting part does help because you become more aware of what's going on, otherwise you are almost at the mercy of whatever pattern you are following. The biggest "wow" or almost relief was reading about other people with similar thoughts and problems. Of course I wouldn't have doubted there are others out there before - but reading about it and in detail, how someone else says things you have felt or thought 100% the same, was an interesting and calming experience. Like FINALLY someone gets it.
Thank you for sharing. I was wondering would it make a difference at all if someone else, (a friend, therapist, partner) would say how the current perspective is corrupted or warped. Would that make a difference? Would it help in that situation? If not, what does help, if anything to get out of that mode?