> That would only prove that people can pirate the game.
You said it. It means that DRM doesn't do anything useful about pirating. The moment "you can pirate the game", it will be pirated. Or you can put it this way - the moment someone puts a DRM stripped version to bittorrent - it becomes available for anyone who wants to pirate it. And it happens all the time. So, again, what other proof do you need, to admit that DRM doesn't affect piracy?
> It doesn't tell us whether the same number of people actually do or whether any casual copying is deterred
Forget about casual copying. The bulk of pirating happens through the networks like bittorent and the like. If you claim that DRM is needed to stop "casual copying" - it's very silly, since any "pirate" who is determined to copy something won't go to ask friends for casual copies. They'll go to torrent networks. So what good did DRM achieve?
> Something involving hard data on sales and piracy trends with and without DRM
You'll never get hard data, since it's not possible. You can only use heuristics, and they all point in the same direction - DRM does not hurt pirates in the least. It hurts legitimate users.
> Ubisoft did change their stance on the DRM after the PR disaster associated with the AC2 launch
Will, major DRM fiascos happen. SimCity fiasco demonstrated that. Sometimes it's enough to clear their brains, but often not. I meant that in most cases execs don't care at all. As CDPR said in the interview I linked above:
Fortunately and unfortunately at the same time, games are becoming huge business. And as with every growing business, there are a lot of people coming in who… have no clue about games and could work in any other industry. They are not asking themselves the question “What is the experience of a gamer?” Or “Is this proposition fair?” But rather, they just look to see if the column in Excel adds up well or not, and if they can have a good explanation for their bosses. As funny as this might sound, DRM is the best explanation, the best “I will cover my ass” thing. I strongly believe that this is the main reason the industry has not abandoned it until today, and to be frank this annoys me a hell of a lot. You are asking, “So why is it taking so long for them to listen?” The answer is very simple: They do not listen, as most of them do not care. As long as the numbers in Excel will add up they will not change anything.
I agree with that 100%. Because if those execs would care about user experience, DRM wouldn't exist.
And what he said about using piracy/DRM as an excuse for incompetence - that was very well spotted. I.e. imagine someone makes a film, game etc. and gets poor sales. They can admit the product was really not so good, so people don't care to buy it, or these execs can point to others and say - Look, so many sales were lost due to pirates! But with DRM - we did all we could to stop them, so it's not our fault.... I.e. DRM can easily be used as a fake excuse to avoid being blamed for the poor quality of the stuff they produce.
"That would only prove that people can pirate the game."
"It means that DRM doesn't do anything useful about pirating."
I'm sorry, I've tried to be reasonable in this discussion, but if you really can't see why those are completely different statements and the second does not follow from the first then there is little point in continuing this conversation.
I was reasonable. If it's easy to demonstrate that DRM still means people can copy it (the moment DRM is broken, which usually happens pretty fast), it means DRM has no effect on preventing piracy. That's a solid logic and you can put nothing against it.
In essence though it's simply irrelevant, since even if DRM slightly hinders some casual copying as you assumed, it doesn't make its existence justified in the least, and it can't serve as a reason behind pushing such horrible preemptive policing practices on consumers. The bottom line and the practical lesson that we can take out of this discussion was already expressed above. Those who push for DRM must be doing it for other reasons than piracy. And it should be strongly opposed, since DRM has no justification and it's an unethical practice.
You said it. It means that DRM doesn't do anything useful about pirating. The moment "you can pirate the game", it will be pirated. Or you can put it this way - the moment someone puts a DRM stripped version to bittorrent - it becomes available for anyone who wants to pirate it. And it happens all the time. So, again, what other proof do you need, to admit that DRM doesn't affect piracy?
> It doesn't tell us whether the same number of people actually do or whether any casual copying is deterred
Forget about casual copying. The bulk of pirating happens through the networks like bittorent and the like. If you claim that DRM is needed to stop "casual copying" - it's very silly, since any "pirate" who is determined to copy something won't go to ask friends for casual copies. They'll go to torrent networks. So what good did DRM achieve?
> Something involving hard data on sales and piracy trends with and without DRM
You'll never get hard data, since it's not possible. You can only use heuristics, and they all point in the same direction - DRM does not hurt pirates in the least. It hurts legitimate users.
> Ubisoft did change their stance on the DRM after the PR disaster associated with the AC2 launch
Will, major DRM fiascos happen. SimCity fiasco demonstrated that. Sometimes it's enough to clear their brains, but often not. I meant that in most cases execs don't care at all. As CDPR said in the interview I linked above:
Fortunately and unfortunately at the same time, games are becoming huge business. And as with every growing business, there are a lot of people coming in who… have no clue about games and could work in any other industry. They are not asking themselves the question “What is the experience of a gamer?” Or “Is this proposition fair?” But rather, they just look to see if the column in Excel adds up well or not, and if they can have a good explanation for their bosses. As funny as this might sound, DRM is the best explanation, the best “I will cover my ass” thing. I strongly believe that this is the main reason the industry has not abandoned it until today, and to be frank this annoys me a hell of a lot. You are asking, “So why is it taking so long for them to listen?” The answer is very simple: They do not listen, as most of them do not care. As long as the numbers in Excel will add up they will not change anything.
I agree with that 100%. Because if those execs would care about user experience, DRM wouldn't exist.
And what he said about using piracy/DRM as an excuse for incompetence - that was very well spotted. I.e. imagine someone makes a film, game etc. and gets poor sales. They can admit the product was really not so good, so people don't care to buy it, or these execs can point to others and say - Look, so many sales were lost due to pirates! But with DRM - we did all we could to stop them, so it's not our fault.... I.e. DRM can easily be used as a fake excuse to avoid being blamed for the poor quality of the stuff they produce.